Forum:(In)definite articles
As per the MoS; definite (the) and indefinite articles (a/an) should be avoided in article titles, except if they are used as the official title. We have bunch of articles with "the" included as part of the title, so it needs to really be examined if these pages should be renamed or not. Basically this thread is a sequel/counterpart to the capitalisation thread, especially since as demonstrated by Wikipedia; a definite article (the) is not ever part of the title of a common name/noun, only proper names/nouns, and the capitalisation thread's thread purpose is to determine that. This thread differs from that thread in that in running text a definite article can still be uncapitalised while still being part of the proper title, depending under which convention the definitive article is being included, which Wikipedia also demonstrates. Meaning that even if "the" is written in lowercase in running text it may still be correct to include it as part of the title. Only examples where quirks do not impact reliability should be cited as opposed to all examples used in the Capitalisation thread. - The Light6 (talk) 14:52, June 7, 2014 (UTC) :Hmm. I definitely feel that the Condesce, as long as we keep the article named that, needs the "The". Because "Condesce" just... isn't right. Of course we can circumvent the debate there if we rename it to Her Imperious Condescension, but I believe there's already a whole load of discussion about what to call that article on its talk page :P The other ancestors would come under the same argument, but fortunately, none of them have dedicated articles! So let's see what other articles are affected. Lists are helpful. :I think this should be all of them. In mainspace, at least. Many are redirects, so let's ignore those. Of the rest, I think we can strip the definite articles from all of them with the possible exceptions of the Felt and the Condesce, and the definite exception of The Thresh Prince of Bel-Air because it's part of the title (by way of comparison, Wikipedia includes "The" for Fresh Prince). :As for indefinite articles, I think the only one we even have (again, in mainspace) is "A Beautiful Pony", which is a redirect. And frankly, one that can probably just be deleted anyway ::Well, The Enquiring Carapacian would be another one to keep. Anyway, I really do think the Condesce article should be renamed Her Imperious Condescension, as it is her full title. (Speaking of renaming threads reminds me, I'm going to just change the post-scratch future earth name now, somebody set up Caligorg to fix all the links to it) 18:54, June 7, 2014 (UTC) :::Yeah many redirects should be left, unless we determine they are useless, vandalism or whatever, so The Enquiring Carapacian and The Thresh Prince of Bel-Air are fine (especially since "The" is part of their proper titles and should be used as per "when definite and indefinite articles should be used in titles of works and publications". :::Also fixed future post-scratch Earth. :::Anyhow, I have had difficulty in working out whether "the" such be considered part of the Condesce's title. I know SN's thoughts about it not "feeling right" although that doesn't stop Wikipedia for things like the Doctor or the Joker. However Wikipedia also distinguishes queen from the Queen so I donno. I guess the issue arises because definite and indefinite articles can be swapped from which neither the Felt nor are immune. Speaking of which, in the capitalisation thread it was kind of concluded that the "the" in the Felt was just an article and not part of the name (see also; the Midnight Crew). :::But we aren't Wikipedia either we can make our own rules, but if we if are having articles in page names which aren't part of the "proper name" but are being inconsistent about it (again the "Midnight Crew" vs. "the Felt" where both are usually proceeded by the definitive article but only one has it in the page name) we probably should adjust the rules to allow them, because our own rules that we wrote say they shouldn't be there. So if we disagree with our own rules than we can change them, because they are our rules. - The Light6 (talk) 04:47, June 8, 2014 (UTC) ::::Hmm, from one point of view, one could argue that the Condesce is analogous to the Queen... but it isn't, I suppose. Because the position the Condesce occupies is that of Empress. So I guess we should change her article to either just "Condesce", or to "Her Imperious Condescension" or, to be insanely formal for teh lulz, "Her Imperious Condescension, Meenah Peixes, Empress of Alternia and post-scratch Earth". As for the Felt... well, if we have "Midnight Crew", we should have "Felt". Consistency is generally the key to wiki policies :::::Well kind of backflipping on myself here, but as per previously stated, if it is part of the official title it should be there, otherwise not. We are kind of figuring that the Felt might not have a definitive article as part of their official title; but are we entirely sure of it? :::::For example the Beatles include "The" as part of their proper name but it is still referred to as "the Beatles" in running text. Likewise the "the" can be truncated or replaced depending on context, e.g. "Ringo was a Beatle". Or using an example above "Will Smith is a Fresh Prince of Bel-Air character". :::::So I guess this means we might need to look harder to see what we can find. :::::Seeing things like and would seem to confirm that "the" is not part of the proper name of the Midnight Crew. :::::So what comparative material do we have for the Felt? where things are capitalised for emphasis both the Midnight Crew and Felt get a shot being capitalised as: "the MIDNIGHT CREW" and as "THE FELT". Similarly also lists both groups as "the Midnight Crew" and "The Felt". The album is . However Professor Mayonaka who submitted the original donation commands for the Midnight Crew and wrote the Felt forum adventure simply titled his adventure as "Felt". Also if we exclude truncated instances there are three instances of "The Felt" vs. three of "the Felt" (plus the one all caps one which has already been mentioned). Of both of those three, in one instance there is a gap of between the use of "the" and "The". :::::Conclusion? It seems that a definitive article is indeed part of the proper name of the Felt, but it isn't a certainty and more information would be useful. - The Light6 (talk) 01:36, June 9, 2014 (UTC) ::::::Well Andrew's certainly not gonna say "he needs the The Felt duds" or "he needs some The Felt duds", it's part of what you mentioned before, you wouldn't say "I'm gonna listen to the The Beatles albums I own today." Frankly, I think Slick's intro page there is plenty concrete. It's kinda like with the blood colours thing, we ultimately settled on GHB's wall as the primary resource due to a) limeblood inclusion and b) Gamzee freaking Makara certain trolls having inconsistent blood color. 06:48, June 9, 2014 (UTC)